SUNSETTERS ON SALLY DEATH AND THE 'GLITCH ALBUM'
A Strange Period in a Strange Career
[excerpts from the Under the Radar Web Exclusive interview with Degan Allen and Elsie Carr, 2015. the purpose of the interview was to promote an upcoming album, but also to reflect on the band's career, and the 10-year anniversary of No Entry, an album with a strange recording history that the band had never to this point disclosed.]
Dirk Rossman (Under the Radar): So No Entry wasn't recorded at your usual studio. You normally record in Atlanta, but suddenly you guys were in the UK. How did that come about, had you always wanted to record somewhere with more history, or...?
Degan: Yeah, that was something the label arranged for us. We were interested in history, of course, and we'd heard of the Gothic Egg before, as some huge names recorded there back in the 60s, 70s.
Elsie: And Coestts had been there.
Degan: Yeah, no, exactly. I think the Gothic Egg had already been shut down before that, no one had recorded music there since like 1976 or something, and when Coestts recorded there, BMB had to get.. get all the systems set up.
Elsie: Wake the slumbering beast.
Degan: That was in the 90s. And we--
Sorry, what's that? "The slumbering beast," was that the Coestts album?
Degan: No, the album they did went by a, uh, a different name. Elsie was...
Elsie: I was being poetic. BMB had to fire up this equipment, a lot of which hadn't been touched in 20 years. Old equipment, big archaic computers and vintage sound recording hardware.
You look wistful.
[Elsie laughs]
Was that old equipment still there when you guys recorded, a decade later? Do you miss it?
Elsie: Sure, sure. It was all this old tech. I got to play with production and, I guess, connect with the old-school ways of production.
Degan: No Entry had a vastly different production than what we were used to. Elsie had her work cut out for her.
Elsie: I was on cloud nine. I later got my own personal VarSYS, because I loved working with it so much.
Degan: You used that on your solo album, didn't you?
Elsie: Used the shit out of it, yeah.
Speaking of Coestts, actually, so No Entry was the album you recorded with Sally Death. How did that come about? Was this something you'd been talking with her about, or did BMB [Records] point you her way? What was it like working with her?
Degan: Yeah. So we-- all of us, every one of us-- had been fans of Coestts for years. Their synergy as a band, their interest in concept, and of course their freedom to make the kinds of albums they wanted, these were things we admired. When we were first becoming a band, Coestts was one of our role models. And that's what led us to BMB, we wanted to be on Coestts' label, we hoped to get that same kind of freedom.
Obviously that worked out. What with Summer Sucks...
Elsie: We're incredibly privileged. The things BMB has done for us, the things BMB does for all its bands, is.. humbling. Revel Yellow are doing a movie now, did you hear? And Archangard's the newest act to sign on, I think, and I know they're already making this complex kind of album...
Degan: Yeah, but, Sally. So I'm the one who's responsible for that. After We Excavate, we did Railroad, of course, and that was obviously a much shorter kind of thing, so while Paul and Fin were talking about what we'd do next, some of us started branching out, doing extra work on the side.
Is that what happened with Remy, around that time?
Degan: Remy... no, Remy saw that we were finally done with the insane work load of the last three years, and he took a good look at himself and wondered if he really wanted more of this. He took some time off from the band. He needed it. That was part of the impetus for me, as what I ended up doing was, BIH [Blazes I. Hoyden, Incorporated] asked me if I wanted to do some guitar instructional videos, and of course, I was honored, I grew up with those VHSes. One thing led to another, and I'm suddenly going to these damn seminars for Famous-But-Not-Megafamous Guitarists, wondering if I got wrapped up in a pyramid scheme. It was at one of those that I met Ridley. Sally, I mean.
She was standing off to the side, not mingling with everyone else. I think she had a similar story to me, she expected to do some instructional videos. Maybe BIH really was gonna have us do them! But Ridley and I got to talking, and rather than stick around, she actually wanted to come and meet the rest of the band! She was aware of us, she was clearly familiar with our albums, we were all flattered. [Degan laughs.] I still can't believe it.
Elsie: Ridley was kind. Patient. She was used to working differently, though, and we did have some conflict about that, she had to get used to our chemistry, but even towards the end of recording with her, she was starting to feel like she belonged with us.
Degan: That's getting ahead a little. She didn't actually want to make anything, at first. She was clearly still affected by what happened with Coestts. And, by that point, all we knew was the band had broken up. We imagined it was emotional, bad enough to still bother her even several years later. But she definitely missed playing music, and we invited her to hang with us, jam a little. And that was all it took. She loved it. She warmed up, felt safe with us. And then, within a couple weeks, she was participating in our band meetings, planning the next album with us, and that was that, she was officially in the band.
So the label didn't have anything to do with it?
Degan: No. Well. I mean.
Elsie: Most of the label's communication with us was through Jack [Allman], and Jack has always been like.. the sixth member of Sunsetters, to us. Back in those days, he did our mastering for us, back when I didn't have as much experience with that, but he also has always taken an interest in the concepts we'd cover. He seems to understand what we're going for, to the point where he'll give his creative input and we'll find it's exactly what we're looking for.
What do you mean? Can you give an example?
[long pause. Elsie looks at Degan.]
Elsie: Well, he.. gave us the name. No Entry. And the album art.
Degan: That's.. that's right. He.. huh.
That album art is iconic. Did Jack make it himself, then?
Degan: I don't know anything about that. Uh, sorry, I think Elsie's just reminded me of...
Is something wrong?
Elsie: It's fine, I'm sorry, I'm so terrible at these interviews. What was the question?
Did the label have anything to do with Sally Death's role in your band?
Elsie: No. No, the label, that is, Jack brought us to Gothic Egg Studio, and suggested the album title after we told him the concept we'd come up with. And he provided the art for us, it was designed in-house I think. Someone on the label. It was an old piece, actually. But Sally was here on Degan's request.
So, Gothic Egg Studio. What was it like recording in such an old building? Did it change the course of the album? How different do you think No Entry would have been if you'd made it in Egg Rock like the rest?
Elsie: So there's really no recording studio I'm aware of that's anything like the Gothic Egg. It's in the middle of the city, but you can't see it from the road, as they built that park around it, and the park is manned 24/7 by security.
It was a military base, wasn't it?
Elsie: Over 60 years ago, yes. I don't know the full story of who currently owns the compound, but they kept the security, and before we even went in we had to sign these waivers, so we knew exactly what we were in for.
What were you in for?
Elsie: Oh, total isolation. We weren't to have any contact with the outside world as long as we were stationed there. And that's the terminology they used, we were "stationed" there. At most, we could talk to Jack Allman. We had this old, old red phone. I wouldn't be surprised if the Prime Minister personally routed our calls to BMB Records. [Elsie laughs.]
Ah, yeah, that's consistent with what other bands have said. Gothic Egg Studio is something of an "experience."
Degan: We had heard. We were okay with the isolation. When Jack first proposed sending us there for the next album, it made sense to us, as even by then we had this theme of isolation we wanted to explore. I think that's why he suggested it. I think.
Elsie: Yeah, I'd say the choice of studio greatly enhanced the album. We had no distractions, as we were living there. Just focused on the music.
Degan: I hated living there.
Elsie: Oh yeah, you had an awful time. Your room had such cold brick, cobwebs, and you were positioned next to that big machine, weren't you?
Degan: It was constantly running. Chugging, clanking, humming. I don't think we ever figured out what it was for.
Elsie: My room was alright. I was up in something like a tower, or it felt like one anyway. I had a window and got to see the pigeons perch. It got cold up there, but that got me up early. And we weren't there for too long, maybe about three months?
Degan: At the time it felt like forever, but yeah, looking back it wasn't so bad.
What was your average day like?
Degan: We'd all be up by 9, some of us earlier than others, have a coffee, take turns in the shower, then band meeting at 10. We'd go over the current state of the album, where each song was at. Have some warmups around 10:30, play through the material, identify what could be worked on, do a little tinkering. Then we'd have a lunch around noon, and spend the afternoon getting to work, usually splitting off into groups. 5 PM was when we'd stop, have some dinner, and then the evenings were free.
Elsie: We were quite consistent. We'd learned a lot making our first albums. I think our regimen was most strange for Sally, she preferred to just come up with a song on her own and then present it to us.
Degan: That's right, and "Follow Me unto the Brink" was one of those. All it needed was your synth, but at core it was a Sally piece.
Elsie: But as she grew accustomed to our chemistry, she started really pitching in. I know I liked partnering up with her, as she's experienced with a keyboard as well. She has an ear for chords, and she had that killer mellotron which made the chords boom. I was able to talk her into doing a keyboard duet with me at one point. Did that end up on the album?
Degan: "Being Watched."
Elsie: Oh, good.
Degan: And the last thing we did was "Best Regards," by which point she had her own synergy with us. She's really a stellar guitarist, a composer I have the utmost admiration for, and it was an honor to work by her side.
Elsie: Well, no, I think we recorded "Prophetic to the Blind" last, didn't we? Once we had the album figured out, we wanted an introductory song.
Degan: Oh, yeah, yeah. You're right.
Okay. And what about the challenges, was there anything about No Entry that you guys found to be a serious challenge?
Degan: Well, "Best Regards" is a pretty complex song, and that did take us a while to figure out, even working as a proper team. I know you, Elsie, also pushed yourself to do more with keyboards this time around...
Elsie: That's right. "The Boy in the Lighthouse" was something of a personal project of mine, and at first I was just doing it on my own, I was thinking of doing a solo album, but once we'd been in the Gothic Egg for about a month, I realized the concept meshed with what we were doing, as it was all about isolation. After I brought it to the rest of the band, Fin and Paul together came up with that technical rhythm--
Degan: The 5/4.
Elsie: No, it's in 4, but the notes are all quintuplets, so in practice it's a 5. That was based on the melody I'd composed, but they took that idea and ran with it.
Degan: Of course.
Elsie, you said you stayed in a sort of tower, looking out a window. Was that the inspiration for the song?
Elsie: That's right.
Degan: The Gothic Egg had a lot of memorable architecture. It had the watchtower, there was a courtyard in the dead center of these old walls, and I mean the rooms inside were a mixture of old old brick and newer brutal steel. So some of the rooms were like a castle, and some of the rooms were smooth modern rectangle. Our recording space was at the end of this long corridor, and the thing is there were no other doors in that corridor--
Elsie: No, the recording hallway had other doors. Remember? They led to little closets, which we used to record individual instruments.
Degan: Really? ...oh yeah! Right! It was the other corridor that had no doors. The Hole, that's what Fin called it.
Elsie: Um.
Degan: It's alright. We never found out what it was for, anyway. There's this trapdoor in the courtyard that leads to this long dark hallway, and I mean it was particularly long, a car could drive at good speeds down there, and there's nothing down there at all except for a rusty bronze door at the very end. We couldn't get it open.
Elsie: We weren't supposed to. We were there to record.
It sounds like this experience took its toll, at least on some people, staying there in that foreign old building for so long, cut off from the world. Do you think that's why Sally ultimately left?
Degan: I don't know about that. The Gothic Egg is a strange location, for sure, but there was.. a lot that she wasn't telling us at the time. I think she was surrounded by memories. Coestts recorded their last album in the Gothic Egg, after all.
It was their last album? I knew they recorded there, but I thought that was De Profundis.
Degan: I think De Profundis was Gothic Egg too, yeah. And you can really hear it, in that album. The stark reverb, the empty spaces. De Profundis has this cold, impersonal vibe to it...
But you're saying they recorded their last one there too. You mean the last one? The one that was never released?
Degan: Yeah, like, I remember being a fan at the time, all we knew was they were recording, we didn't know where. Coestts had always been a pretty underground band, and there was no journalism for them in those days. But Sally told us.
Elsie: I don't think she meant to. She didn't like to talk about it.
Degan: It was inevitable, though. She ended up having to go back to that studio. Back to that building. Of course she was gonna let it slip.
Did she say anything else? About what happened?
Degan: We.. could piece some things together. She definitely wasn't happy about the choice of studio. She was cold around Jack. And.. well, she left before Jack provided us with the album cover, but I don't think she'd have approved. In hindsight.
Elsie: Should we.. be talking about that? About any of this?
What are you saying? That Coestts broke up due to corporate meddling? That your album art was what Coestts was gonna go with?
Degan: No, it's not that. It's... stranger.
Elsie: Degan.
[the interview pauses here. there is some discussion. Elsie Carr leaves the interview. Degan Allen remains.]
Is she gonna be okay?
Degan: Yeah. This is a subject we've had to talk about, as a band, and we all have our opinions on it, but enough time has passed that I'm willing to talk about it. It's particularly hard for her. See, the thing is... god, where do I start.
After Sally left the band, we went back to the Gothic Egg, yeah? When Remy returned. He had had his break, and we were short a guitarist, and he was committed to our art again, and we were happy to have him back. We were starting to plan out Eight Colors then, but first we wanted to do an EP, and Remy had all this material he'd been working on for years, so, we were doing Ancestor. And we kinda all decided, hey, maybe we could go back to the Gothic Egg. I know I wanted Remy to get to experience that, I didn't want him to miss out. We figured it was unlikely, as the Gothic Egg is a pretty serious thing, but surprisingly Jack got back to us with the Okay, and in late 2005 we went back!
You say you did Ancestor without Sally Death? Wasn't her guitar on there?
No, that was Remy. Well, actually, no. We found Sally's guitar at the Gothic Egg. I think Remy recorded a part of the EP on that.
We only spent about a month there this time, as the material was much shorter, and Remy had already composed a good chunk of it over the years. This proved to be a good thing, as we went there in the cold of winter and heating was a problem. Plus the stark architecture provided a vessel for some strong winds. It was noisy. And I guess.. a lot creepier this time. Got dark a lot sooner.
[Degan sighs.]
And, uh, one day, towards the end of our stay, we noticed the trapdoor in the courtyard was wide open. I don't know which one of us went digging around down there, as we weren't supposed to, Elsie was right about that, but everyone claimed they'd never opened it, and I know I didn't open it. But as long as it was open, Fin talked Remy into going down there and seeing the Hole for himself, and I came along too.
The door at the other end was open now.
What was inside? What did it lead to?
We didn't really want to know, as it was almost definitely some kind of ancient military secret or something, but. It was just a small room. Nine foot by nine. With a small barred window into darkness.
Sounds like a prison cell.
No, wait. It wasn't just darkness... there was a light out the window.
Underground?
Yeah... yeah, I'm certain. But we didn't stick around. We closed the door behind us and went back up, met up with Elsie and Paul, and. We found the computer. It was in the space where we had our band meetings. None of us had seen it before. I know at first I thought one of those two had just put it there, but it really doesn't make sense... I think the computer came from that room in the Hole.
So someone moved it into your space from the Hole? Was someone else there?
I don't know. But, it's what was on the computer. When Elsie got it working, she identified it as being from 1998, and it had nothing out of the ordinary for us, it had been used to edit music. And there, in a folder named after a date, was a load of files, isolated stems, drafts, fragments, works in progress, and 11 numbered files. We clicked on one, track 5, and gave it a listen.
It was Coestts. It took a few more tracks to be absolutely sure, it wasn't quite their style, much more keyboard-heavy, almost an electronic album, but Coestts were hardly ones to stick to a single style anyway. But that was Baldovino's bass, for sure, and that was Liena's drumming, and that was Sally Death on mellotron. Then we heard Steve Carpenter's voice on some of the tracks, and that sealed it. This was an album without much singing, with more emphasis on poetry, with Steve reading just like on previous albums.
You found the missing Coestts album.
We heard it. And it sounded like it was pretty much complete.
At first, we were geeking out. This was rock music history to us. And some of those tracks, let me tell you, they sounded killer, some of their strongest material.
Such a shame.
But. After a while, as we heard more and more of the album, especially once we started listening in order, we started to get weirded out. There was something.. wrong. Maybe it was just the sense that we weren't supposed to be listening to this, but I swear, some of those songs had a.. mood to them. All the instruments were overpowered by this, like, blanket of noise. And compared to the mellotron, the other instruments didn't show up that much, and when they did, it was a pretty repetitive drum and bass. Like Sally had to do half the album by herself. And then the.. hrm.
What?
Maybe I'm remembering this wrong. But it's so vivid in my memory. I remember the end of the album. I remember it was no more Steve Carpenter, instead someone else started singing, and speaking.
Not Baldovino? I know she was the usual singer.
No. No, it sounded like.. Elsie.
[pause.]
Yeah. Yeah, I remember that. Because that's what upset Elsie at the time. She turned pale, and went off to another room, and had to calm down. Because it really did sound just like her. Singing some.. weird things, like she was getting ready to die. And that poem.
It couldn't have actually been her, though?
No. It couldn't. In 1998, she was at Georgia State with us. And anyway, this sounded like her in 2005.
[pause.]
That's why she doesn't want to talk about this.
[pause.]
You wanna know what the album was called? The numbered files had an album cover attached. It was our album cover, but all glitched up. But the title was still readable: NO ENTRY.
[pause.]
When we finished Ancestor, we left that computer to be dealt with by whoever's responsible, and we never went back to that place again. I don't believe in the supernatural, but, I believe in coincidences, and I believe coincidences will keep happening at that place. We don't need to know.
Did you ever get in contact with Sally again, after this? Did you bring any of this up?
No.
Did the label make you sign an NDA?
What? No, the label has been characteristically free about all this. I couldn't contact Sally, what with the court case.
Court case?
You don't know? I thought you were just being coy. You don't know what happened with Sally?
No.
Well, a few weeks after she left the band, and we released No Entry, certain allegations became known to legal authorities. See...
[Degan pauses.]
The members of Coestts were murdered during the recording of their last album. All of them except Sally.
Oh...
So, naturally, the suspicion was that Sally, uh, was responsible.
You don't think she was?
No. I can't believe it. I mean, I don't know. I don't want to believe it.
But then who do you think did it? This happened in Gothic Egg Studio, right? There's the policy of total isolation.
There's.. there's still possibilities. Why would it be Sally? Why would she do it?
Sure. And you spent three months with her in isolation, so you wouldn't want to think she was capable of that.
I mean. Yeah. But her behavior makes just as much sense if she didn't do it. Her bandmates died in that building. She wouldn't want to go back there. And we gave her constant reminders of it. Like, the title. That came about two months in, we sent Jack our current progress and the concept so far, and Jack gave it some thought and said he didn't think our proposed album title was good enough. We were going with Cherry Bomb, he suggested No Entry. And Sally clammed up. Because of the album none of us knew about.
And here's a question for you: Why would BMB keep her on the label if she did it?
